Research // Sexism in Rock // The Interviews

TW // sexual harassment

I was equally parts horrified but not surprised about how rampant the sexism is in the scene. So I wanted to ask the women who are actually part of this.

I had 6 women come forward for an interview and I would just like to thank them for their time and honesty, it was so interesting to hear everyone's thoughts on this. All names are protected.

(I sent out so many requests but I had 4 no shows, quite a few people say they'd answer questions and then just never reply and many others just not answer at all. Something is better then nothing!)

A is in first person, as she wrote out her answers.

I ran a survey recently that asked a few broad questions about the community. One of the questions I asked was do you think the alternative community is misogynistic & sexist? 70% of the vote said yes. Do you agree?

A - Absoultely A - yes, because when a band is "cancelled", always about them doing somthing to women

A - yeah, 100% E - yeah, gives off the vibe G - To an extent, women are looked upon as don’t know as much, moshpits are sexist, treated as lesser in the metal, talked down to T - oh yeah, 1000%

So let's talk about some of the unwanted comments women often get, starting with gatekeeping. All of these apply online and in real life!

Has a man ever asked you to name 3 songs when you’re wearing a band shirt?

A -actually, no

A - gone into a lecture with metallica shirt on and been told she's not a "real fan" but it was a woman who said it. Gigs are very cliquey and online spaces are too, hard to make friends. She looks more "normal" and thinks it feeds into the problem - people not taking her seriously.

A - Absolutely, one of boyfriends friends asked her to name stuff, she said it feels like you go blank because if being under pressure and then it just makes you seem like a poser, she can sing along, goes to gigs, knows of albums/bands/songs etc but memory isn’t great so she just doesn't pay attention and feels men expect you to memorize an entire bands discography simply cos we're women.

G - Yep, reading fest was asked if she liked meshuggah while wearing their shirt, it was assumed it was the boyfriends shirt, doesn’t happen as much when with boyfriend, she spoke fishnets falling into the kink realm and men being inappropriate about what we wear.

E- No, scared to wear the merch

T - All the time, especially in metal, not so much in goth. If they see you wearing a band t shirt it’s like an interrogation, they target us.

Ever got a gig and someone asks where your boyfriend is or did they get you into the band?

A -Nope

A - No

A -Yeah, she’s short so try’s to get to the front, been asked who looking after her, where is her boyfriend etc when she should be able to just enjoy a gig by herself or wander away from the girls for a bit without being asked where the "protective man" is.

G - No, think because she "looked" the part

E - no

T - she feels gigs are more geared towards male attention, that it's like they're only for men

Ever expressed your love for music, alternative fashion, concerts etc and had a man call you a poser?

A- Nope

A - She doesn’t think so, think it goes back to looking more normal

A - Hardcore being gatekeeping, dress normal once and normal means your not a metalhead (a "poser"), she felt dressing normal or dressing down has got to be normalized,that money is a barrier into our communities, not everyone has can be able to join due to barriers, just because people don't look alternative doesn’t mean they aren’t.

E -Comes back to being too scared to show how she wants to be

G - Yeah. Women and men do it, she wasn't listening to the “right music” called new rocks the wrong thing and felt very attacked by all the people jumping on it and being rude to her over a simple thing

T - 100% especially with stuff like anime & gaming. She often doesn't know titles or albums she just listens to whatever she likes so seen as fake fan just for not knowing everything.

Ever been forced to change how you look due to getting unwanted comments or attention in alternative spaces?

A - No. But I think this is down to two things – my stubbornness to always do wtf I want in my own life. But also because being autistic prevents me from being aware of dangerous situations.

A - The opposite, the more she dress alternative the more "normal" people are negative towards her.

A - She has to dress professional for her job so only really dresses alternative on time off, she went to gig in low cut top and someone shouted at her saying look at the tits on her, hasn't worn one since. Sometimes feel pressured to dress down around extended family as they're not accepting.

E -Tried to make uniform unique, scouts said it was inappropriate, wasn’t actually inappropriate they just to control her and her body. Institutions try to control more unique people.

G - Not in alternative spaces but had to change for work, she had a killstar tank top on and the manager made inappropriate comments about her body trying to saying the customers would notice and she felt so uncomfortable she changed and has never wore it to work again. She was wearing a cold shoulder top, she has a tattoo on her back/shoulder & she had a very strange comment - a man made said it would make her mom would cry about it. She said she does get strange comments in public off men sometimes and it's uncomfortable.

T - Made to change clothes a lot due to family her family not being accepting, but it can negatively impact her within our community, she feels a judgement sometimes because of having to dress more normally around her family.

Why are we constantly questioned and almost forced to prove ourselves?

A - I think (not everyone would agree i know) but I think these guys will pick to do these things to the women they perceive will either fear or fancy them. So short, slim, petite or conventionally pretty women they think they can prove themselves to be superior over.

A - People are shocked when they find out about it cos she’s "normal", you have to fit into the stereotype otherwise left alone, alternative clothes feeding the problem but it works both ways.

A - Misogyny, the community isn’t as welcoming as it thinks it is, massive ego problems in the community, me are protective over it and seems to be status too etc twitter is becoming a problem with clique’s and beefing, men using twitter to prey on women especially.

G- Not the “stereotpyical” love island, fiat 500 girl etc most women will stand up for themselves and men don't like it. We make a space even if they don't want us.

T - Part of is general sexism, men assume we know nothing, women in this scene are often very artistic and expressional but it’s very sexualised, there's less women so women are erased from the knowledge. We're seen as not as good, not as capable. We seem rare cos the magazines etc don’t focus on us, our community ignores us or drags us down and not as many girls on stage.

A huge problem the community faces is whitewashing. Think about it - the industry and spaces are absolutely dominated by white men. On stage, backstage, labels, journalists, at gigs etc

A lot of the community speaks about being equal - that it doesn’t matter what gender, race, where you come from etc. However, with white men absolutely dominating the space this doesn’t always ring true and leads to many women having a “I’ve got to be one of the boys” mentality.

Have you experienced or seen someone in the community do this?

A - I was big time. Not about race but about gender. I’ve been alt since as long as I can remember. Emo music wasn’t popular and looking like I did was weird. I was bullied for it. Then in year 10 all of a sudden emo became popular – bands like sleeping with sirens and pierce the veil. So lots of fangirls emerged and started looking like me (and for the most part because they were skinnier, shorter, prettier and had more money they looked a lot better than me so I think I was also mega jealous). They all began doing the same things as me. They would start talking about other bands like korn, slipknot and all that and I felt very protective and gatekeeping. So I always considered myself above these girls, like I was superior to them because I was a real fan. They were the posers.

A - Yeah, it's a general problem but does concern us, she feels we often have to live up to white men expectations, we're seen as intruders, there always seems to be a token girl to one boy group but it's easier to bring to girls in then join another group.

A - Yeah massively ,seen friends trample over each other to be one of the boys, it’s not girls first when we're supposed to look out for each other, the community is so whitewashed and yet was made by POC, white men have been allowed to do what they want, POC can’t enter because they’re not given space.

E - A lot of girls are pick me's, she used to be one, helps them feel validated.

G - It absoutely should not have a place. Alternative brands feed into this too - Killstar, Attitude Clothing, Kreepsville 666 were called out during the BLM for only showing white models, bullying black women in their workspaces or saying racist sh*t. It's unacceptable. Diverse clothing brands need to happen for things to be more equal and for women to not have to fit into a certain "look".

T - Seen a lot of it online, rarely get in real life cos she’s mixed, hispanic people are more accepted rather then black people, black people experience so much of it they don’t have a voice and get far less attention then white people.

Do you think this kind of mentality has a space in the community?

A - Not really, should be uplifting girls, making friends rather then shunning, keeps men on top

A - It’s changed recently, become very androgynous not very feminine, it’s slowly changing but the “i’m not like other girls” they fall into masculine vibes but it feeds into their personality

E -It shouldn’t, trying to get male validation

T - Break this mentality, give more POC space and voice, we’re breaking the norm but really need to practice what we preach can’t really be alternative if you’re discriminating it’s supposed to be about accepting everyone we need to push for equality

One article I read spoke about the moshpit, and how the moshpit is sexist. Men always jump in and create the pit, with women being pushed to sides, having to be “rescued” after being trapped, or being looked down upon for not wanting to be in the pit.

What are your personal feelings on the pit? Do you think it’s sexist?

A - As a teenager I wanted to be in the pits. Since all the gigs I went to as a teen I was practically alone, my mum would stand at the bar while I was in the crowd, so I was basically alone. I remember trying to get into it but it always seemed inaccessible and extremely unnecessarily aggressive. I was at a WSS gig with my ex boyfriend and we wanted to get in there, but there was crowd killers there and one elbowed me in the chest so hard I went down. You know how metalheads love to preach “metal gigs are great if someone falls in the pit we pick them up" yeah that’s bullsh*t. While I was on that floor no-one stopped trampling me.

A - Don’t think its sexist as such, people just get destroyed in the pits either way but guys get carried away and absolutely batter each other, but those kind of men don't care if we're in the way.

A - Definitely male energy, push women out mentally and physically,sometimes we go into pits knowing what they are but get pulled out when we don’t want to be by a man deciding they know better, we don’t need saving. She has seen women start the pit but they never seen to fully start until a men jumps in. Sometimes we need help with the crowdsurfers cos men don’t control them (I think she mean the general direction of them). Men trying to get us to on their shoulders etc don’t respect us saying no, getting groped, harassed etc

E - Annoying for women, literally dangerous but looked down, called posers for not being able to enter

G - At Reading & Leeds she got kicked in the head, had a panic attack, tried to get help but no one helped her or would let her out the crowd. Men target you and try to get you in there, men make jokes about women in the pit so yeah it’s sexist. Bands taking notice of girls being unsafe, she used frank carter as an example.

T - Hasn’t been in one, but feels like it's fighting a losing battle, they want women to constantly prove themselves. Spoke about girls getting groped or pulled back in when they don't want to be.

Women are often considered the backbone of this community and yet we rarely get acknowledged for it.

Female members of bands mean they often get placed in a genre called “Female Fronted”. Female Fronted is damaging because it takes away from the type of rock/metal the band play, singles the band out and can be even more damaging for POC women as it can actively work against them. The industry makes things hard for women as it is - so many front women speak about how hard it was to be signed because the labels would say they “already have a girl in a band. Why would they want more?” They can oversexualise the band or a female member to make them “sell”. Amy Lee & Lzzy Hale have spoken about this a few times in regards to that being signed to a bigger label often means they want to build on your sexuality and market you as a sex icon.

Women are asked “what’s it like being a girl in the entertainment world” whereas men are never asked the same thing.

They’re often asked about costumes and fashion and other things that don’t matter, taking away from their promotions of their albums & bands whereas men don’t experience this.

Calling or grouping a band as “female fronted” reduces the band's identity to one person who identifies as that gender. If they are not a solo artist, then they should be treated the same as their male counterparts who don’t experience this.

Do you think singling female bands/members out is a good or bad thing?

A - Bad.

A - It shouldn’t be announced as a genre.

A - Shouldn’t be just about the women, it’s important to acknowledge but people act like it's just to get to a point across, fake "wokeness".

E - Bad, don’t think about the talent, oh just a girl need to focus on the actual bands.

G - Bad thing. Yes, giving them “exposure” if we want equality they need to be treated the same.But they're highly sexualised, and only focuses on the woman in the band, not the rest of the members.

T - Goes both ways, good for praising them, but also a bad way to drag them down. Need to pull women forward for the attention and validation they deserve.

Do you listen to women in rock/metal music?

A - Yes but for all these reasons (above) I struggle finding them.

A - Not much as she'd like, she’d have to to dig to find them.

A - Yeah, quite a few, the ones she listens to have found through gigs etc have searched online too. Pointed out that when you search for bands it’s always men that come up first. Spoke about the fact Architects is acknowledged when dropping new stuff but not Evanescence who are dropping an album at the same time, even tho Evanescence are at the same level of fame. The whole "women can’t scream" argument frustrates her because it further pushes away women who can. Women take the time to introduce the men in the band cos they know how it feels to be ignored.

E - Mother mother, kpop bands.

G - Halestorm & Paramore off the top of her head, she doesn't typically search them out.

T - She listens to women in goth, punk artists, we can scream and have a lot to say. Always looking out for new women for inspiration, but we shouldn’t have to look it should be front and center. She spoke about wishing more people wouldn’t romanticise alternative, share the more side of normal sides of the alternative, especially with the decor and fashion as not everyone can afford or can access it.

Do you think women have enough representation in the community?

A - Nope. For a solid few years the only female represented bands I knew were Paramore, We are the in crowd, Evanescence, Halestorm and Flyleaf.

A - No, don’t see us as much, there's the stereotype that men suit rock more, tiktok is helping with exposing bands and our music to new fans, stories coming out on there help with tackling issues.

A - No (see above)

E - Not really, when you think of this genres you think of men

G - No. Struggled cos don’t look like typically “goth” skinny. Killstar sizing is awful, misrepresentation of how we're supposed to look. Women in bands being super skinny - not their fault but isn't great to look up to. Alternative modelling a problem. Having to find things that fit or having to seek out alternative sites in the first place. Sizing being awful. Size 12 not fitting and making us feel huge, even tho it's cos of sizing issues and not us.

T - Not enough at all, we're just here for sexualised purposes, for what an idealized women "looks like", big tiddy goth gf etc causes us issues, super white skin in goth world it's discriminatory towards POC, clothing companies are always heavy on pentagrams just want some normal black stuff, also makes her feel like witchcraft practices not respected.

Do you think that women making spaces for themselves will turn the tables towards better gender equality?

A - I think it needs to be a joint effort from cis women and genderqueer people.

A - Dunno,seems a bit silly, needs women to make the space not men, but the separation is bad and will only make things worse.

A - Mixed feelings about safe spaces, good for looking after people but the separations make it harder to mix back in, hard to make to impact it needs to.

E - Yes

G -Trying to convert current spaces would be better, making your own space could be seen as negative or making the worse inequality worse

T - Yes i think it could, more spaces for women to protect and uplift each other if we have a space.

Women and POC are slowly making spaces for themselves within the community because men continually fail to. Yet if you look at the booking bills for festivals for the last 5 years, there are not nearly enough women on high stages or being booked at all. Bloodstock's booker believes women not being booked isn’t a problem - it’s because “there’s not enough talented bands to book”. She only booked 4 female acts for 2021.

If you don’t give bands a chance to shine, how will they reach new audiences?

Download is the same, only 20 female acts for 2021.

Reading & Leeds again only booked 20 female acts for 2020 amongst hundreds of men.

Do you think sexism in festivals needs addressing?

A - Yeah, lmao don’t forget Andy copping saying its because female bands simply don’t exist.

A - Yeah definitely, everyone should be equal, it’s harder when female bands are invisible, they just stick them on smaller stages.

A - Yeah massively, you can’t address it if you don’t even give them a chance.

E - Yeah T - Massively, women should have more opportunity

What would you do to change this issue?

A - Possibly more work with charities like Safe Gigs For Women. A bigger push from the audience that doesn’t (to the bookers) just sound like complaining – think about it if you’re an egotistical festival owner who thinks you can do no wrong, and people are moaning at you, you arent going to listen are you. You have to meet them on their level.

A - Book more female bands, one festival just needs to get on with it and do it, the bands need to speak up too

A - Do research, diversity access, beneficial to everyone involved, makes good business sense

E - Book more and put more higher stages, put more women backstage, stereotypically a male job

G - Would do 50/50 bands, bands with substantial following. More respect needs to be given. Gatekeeping needs to stop, but people don’t want to challenge the status quo

T - Petitions, open letter, demographic demands, boycott take a stand

Racism in metal has become a very talked about topic this year after the rise of the BLM movement. A lot of metalheads supported it and attended protests etc yet black women especially are constantly denied a place in metal. They aren’t taken seriously or are told liking metal or rock is “white”.

Rock was actually born from a Black Queer woman. The blues played a huge part in creating our genre and yet black and POC are constantly denied their place in our communities. When any of our news outlets report on this the facebook comments are often “just play the music” “I don’t listen to metal to get political” “why does it matter” which is unacceptable from people who call themselves “metalheads”. This again backs up the false equality in our genre - rock and metal music is political, always has been and it reeks of racism to announce you don’t support it.

Do you think our community is racist?

A- I’d say its not the community, it’s the foundation of the scene. The 18 year olds who are more woke than us right now are nothing like the 40 odd year olds who've been in the community since they were teenagers.

A - Particular the older generation, they clearly announce their racism, higher ups being racist, communities beginning to call people out, but it's still very taboo or like an open secret - no one talks about it.

A - Definitely, even if it’s not obvious. Our music is built on politics, we've got people chatting about privilege but a lot of it is fake wokeness, it's not enough to be anti racist you have to be actively anti racist. It makes you poser if you're a racist in this community, we need no tolerance for it.

E - Yes, quite loud racism, not enough people taking the step

G -Yes, not as outspoken as it used to be, younger people challenged it, but it's still among the older people in the community. People should listen to the music and not really pay attention to who’s making it. Racism is equal in both countries (US & UK). A lot of the community silent on microaggressive actions but young people beginning to call it out.

T - 100% absolutely, scared it’s not gonna change, had the protests, nothing changes, everytime we are promised changed but it doesn’t change

Do you think there’s more that can be done to combat racism in the community?

A - Yeah, it comes down to the magazine publications, radio stations, TV music stations. Yeah the real ones should be on the music labels but if they don’t feel the push from these places they aren’t going to change.

A - Something be done but not sure what to do, bands need to get on it and speak up, not just when BLM is being spoken about they need to be constantly making sure they are talking about it.

A - Definitely, more artists need to speak up, bands need to stay on top, gotta walk the talk, black voices first, calling out people about it.

E - More representation, starts with us - labels have to follow us if we stand up for them

G - As a white person can’t really comment but think that we should just listen to the music. A lot of people are very focused on image and who they know. Fashion brands, makeup brand, gig bookers etc need to do more

T - 100% give them voices, boost them, use social media, support them, lot of goth fashion brands are owned by black goths.

Do you listen to any bands with POC in? (I did put everyone really on the spot here)

A -Unfortunately I could probably count them on one hand. That’s not me choosing to only listen to those ones, its me not being aware of others.

A - off the top of her head - Fever 333, Skindred, Babymetal

A - Definitely, more punk ones, anti flag, fever 333, propergandie, listens to rap too

E - not really bands but she loves Kpop

G - Skindred, The Hu

T - Yeah a few, have to dig to find as not good at remembering names or albums

What do you think should be done about these kind of comments that appear on facebook? (I said facebook just cos that's where I tend to see the most racist comments, however they happen accross all platforms)

A -The bands themselves need to get involved – remember Kurt Cobain telling homophobes not to bother buying their records. The pages that post the original things (loudwire, metal hammer etc) need to get involved more in the comments section.

A - Older people that don’t want to change and we can’t argue for days so educate the new generation, social media is working in younger generation.

A - She just flat argues with people, she said set up BLM protests and got death threats from where she lives because of it. It's deffo a problem

E - Reply try to educate, explain the comments are wrong

G - Some sort of review system, be able to support people in education on their views but won’t be known that their comment was deleted etc tailor adverts towards them. Prejudice can come from not being educated and fear, we need to open their minds

T - Agree with review system but she was worried about education falling on deaf ears, reporting is best way

Do you think metal could do more to support POC?

A - Yeah.

A - More bands speaking on higher platforms, not just when it’s a hot topic.

A - 100 supporting poc bands, media needs to get on it, spotify needs to do more.

E -Yeah, there’s always room for improvement

G - Not sure how but do think I need more to be done. Both higher and community need to start the ball rolling.

T - Far more effort, find to some decency give them a space to talk about it, you have to be uncomfortable, it’s not about you

T/W Sexual Harassment - please skip this if you are not comfortable with it

A charity has appeared in the last 5 years called Safe Gigs For Women. Some of our community and the higher ups in the industry like to ignore problematic behavior - as shown this year with the amount of bands being outed for inappropriate behavior, messing with underage women and more serious accusations. I think it amounts to well over 40 bands being called out, with a lot of the conversation centered around Warped Tour and how unsafe it was for women. A lot of men do make up our community but they also don’t call other men out - I was 14 when I was first harassed at a gig. I had a man come and sit down next to me and offer drinks and be really creepy etc even tho I asked him to leave and he didn’t move until my brother came back over to me. I’ve had my arse grabbed at gigs, been harassed in Satans or had men creepily stare at me or make comments about how I look etc. The only man that has ever stuck up for me was my brother, nobody else ever steps in?

Do you think the community needs a hard conversation about how women are treated?

A - Yeah, and it could be easily done. If bands can take the time to do a livestream to promote things like their religion or beef they have with another band, they can take the time to sit down and do a stream talking about this.

A - Definitely, not just sexual abuse that's rife in the community it's emotional abuse too, dating men in bands gives them a power trip, she had 15/19 age gap when dating a man in a band and no one called it out, She feels like men see through rose tinted goggles, their mates ignore it, ignore how it affects us but it never leaves us and literally affects all of us as women. Some bands don’t do things publicly, they don’t address things but there needs to open conversations, men in bands will call out other people but not in their own bands or friendships, this happens to us daily

A - 100% sick of women seeing just being discarded, it’s hard to speak out without men backing us up otherwise we're just not believed. She only goes to gigs with a group of girls. Spoke about men just not calling each other out even locally, no one does anything about the creepy men, police don’t help us, men don’t help, ‘cancelling’ isn’t ideal but it gets something done, men enable it, emotional abuse is rife in the community, all of this is very much an open secret

E - Yeah. (Would would you do if you had unlimited resources?) At concert make everyone listen with information, festival screens

G - 100%. Not experienced at gigs but did at goth parties. She was choked and had ass slapped at a party, when she called it out there was a weird denial about it and she was told she was being over dramatic and he's not creept. Denial about men doing inappropriate behaviour. Takes them to see it or experience it for a hit home. Women being "over dramatic" if we say anything, it keeps us quiet. Groupie culture enables a lot of this to happen, men think we want it

T - Yeah, no one wants to start the conversation, young girls being groomed by men in bands, teens have stronger feelings and they idealise these men, men preying on children,some of our beauty standards rooted in pedophilia. It's too easy for men to do it and also to get away with it. A lot of people tend to have mental illnesses in our community and if you let this happen you're not protecting them. People need to start seeing consequences, go after the person who did it, they should have be on the sex offenders list if they're caught out.

Do you think the community does enough to combat unwanted sexual attention?

A -Nope, it glamourises things far too much. Like hentai and sexualising young looking women.

A - Frank carter is good, he calls it out when it happens and doesn’t give a fuck, bands don't do enough but it should be everybody. Needs to be sorted on every level

A - Bouncers need to kick people out when caught misbehaving in the clubs, maybe when you go to a gig zero tolerance, men to check their mates, BDSM needs to be addressed and consent needs to be taught, they take advantage of us metally and physically, “boring” sex - if you’re not kinky it’s a problem, it's become a status thing so they can brag about us as sexual objects

E - No they don’t do enough

G - Only brought to light. Warped tour was only taken seriously cos there was loads of people. If it’s one on one women are not believed. Enough is not done

Do you think more could be done? What would you suggest? Do you think the problem lies with us in the community or that bands, backstage, labels etc need to take more responsibility too?

A -It has to come from the bands, and tbh it has to come from the “powerful” bands. The ones who have actually profited off it themselves and been guilty of it – they have to own up to it and address it. The community will only do as they see bands, bookers and labels do.

A - Community level not much can be done, the bigger white bands need to be saying something, the micro level can’t do much, bigger people need to do more, speak out more, but only people in power positions can change.

A- Both, starts with us, we don’t realise the power we have, if we make the change they will follow

E - People at the top need to stop oversexualising female artists, labels have big influence, men need to call mates out, bands need to say things cos people look up to them

G - Big old sit down, stop supporting abusers, talk to your creepy mates, more education on consent, socially acceptable,teaching about BDSM and consent, just because she’s into that doesn’t mean she wants it. Our clubs sexualise women. Clubs are part of the problem breeds it - seen as sex objects. Comes from groupie culture, it's become hidden but still happens. Everyone needs take responsibility, culture needs to change but change also needs to come from the top, be a slow process. Magazines are helping with younger people who can navigate social media.

T - It’s been so pressed to be oversexualised it can be stuck in us, we could do more so that women don’t have to put up with this sh*t. Better programs for victim support, we need to be treated as women and not objects, BDSM community making problems as they don't acknowledge us or help with the abuse, chokers and harnesses are seen as sexy and that is your consent and it's beyond wrong, don’t consider them part of the alternative because alternative is about music, our fashion shouldn’t be aligned with them, tiktok also feeding this into the younger generation too. Yes, people who run magazines, blogs etc

Gatekeeping needs to be at a certain level like kicking out racists, homophobes etc

E boys and e girls apologising for post BLM stuff cos "it didn't fit the aesthetic" needs to stop

Christan, jewish goths etc they exist too and we need protect those who are not heard.